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St Mirren Colts v The Binos

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40 minutes ago, Robert Young said:

Are you confident KR will turn things round, then.  From what I've seen of him, in the dug out recently, he's not as animated as he used to be and at times looked crestfallen. I think he's regretting taking on some of his summer signings.

If the club sacked KR like you want, who would you employ and how confident are you that they could turn things around?

You keep mentioning that these are his players and he signed them... There is the first clue how to solve this problem long-term.

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6 hours ago, The Gray Man said:

If the club sacked KR like you want, who would you employ and how confident are you that they could turn things around?

You keep mentioning that these are his players and he signed them... There is the first clue how to solve this problem long-term.

If the club do sack KR, I hope they have somebody lined up to take his place, or at least somebody they would like to approach.  Leaving the manager's position vacant for weeks and having to go through the interviewing procedure, could cause us to be a further 6 to 12 points behind the rest of the pack, and make it harder to catch up.  Apart from Bikey, the rest of the summer's window players, were KR's signings weren't they?

 

Edited by Robert Young

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8 hours ago, Robert Young said:

Are you confident KR will turn things round, then.  From what I've seen of him, in the dug out recently, he's not as animated as he used to be and at times looked crestfallen. I think he's regretting taking on some of his summer signings.

I'm confident he'll give it a good go and if he fails it wont be through lack of effort. 

Personally, I dont think we are far off.   The team is just not gelling yet, confidence is low and everything seems to go against us on the park.  That will pass   

The squad looks good enough.  We lacked a striker and a bit of pace out wide and the board found the funds for duffy and bikey.  Neither has had enough time to make a mark yet but you can see the quality they bring.

There are no certainties in football especially at this level but no need to push the button.  

I think you're probably right that he regrets some of his signings but hindsight is a wonderful thing.  What is certain is that this squad of players has enough quality to be doing better.  

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1 hour ago, Robert Young said:

If the club do sack KR, I hope they have somebody lined up to take his place, or at least somebody they would like to approach.  Leaving the manager's position vacant for weeks and having to go through the interviewing procedure, could cause us to be a further 6 to 12 points behind the rest of the pack, and make it harder to catch up.  Apart from Bikey, the rest of the summer's window players, were KR's signings weren't they?

1. Who would you go for to replace KR?

2. How confident are you that they could do any better?

3. I am agreeing with you that these players are KR signings. You haven’t read my post properly. 

4. Why are you not classifying Bikey as a KR signing? 

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A succession of managers have complained too many players weren't doing the basics, but what are the basics? How do players get into senior football without knowing them? Why do they keep on not doing them?  Does the product churned out by the SFA coaching badge system, get brain washed into a false perception of what the "basics" are?  Individual basics, or organizational basics? Or as we've seen too much of....both!  So let's look at it.

Individual basics.  Ball control, passing, heading, shooting, tackling, movement off the ball, marking and vision. Vision being part of the process of decision making. What's on, what's not. Add to that fitness and stamina and determination to be first to a ball. On what I've watched for years now, I'd give pass marks for about  4 out of that lot for most of the players who have gone through this club. That would be ball control, tackling, fitness and stamina. A few individuals earned pass marks on another two and you could count on one hand those who did better than that.

Organizational basics.  Teamwork, understanding of your team mates  strengths, weaknesses and capabilities.  Tactics. What's your role when we get possession. What is it when they've got possession. Defend deep, or defend pushed up and rely on the offside trap.  Deep means  your marking and tracking has to be good. Ours isn't.  Pushed up means  you'd better be good at operating the offside trap. Are we?  We've defended at the edge of our own box so much over the years I've never really had the chance to answer that.  Just get bodies behind the ball at the edge of your box, or keep tight on them and stop them getting there too easily? I've seen a lot of the former and it hasn't worked.

So for me, it's actually true, we haven't known, or performed the basics for years. They aren't understood, or they're not being enforced. Or a self defeating mixed combination of both. I think both. Playing too deep when we don't have the strengths and abilities to get away with it. All about bodies behind the ball, letting the opposition gratefully knock the ball about in front of you. One man, if that left up, so clearances generally come straight back at you.  Playing people in unnatural roles.   All that I lay at managers doors.

Trying to pass the ball literally through opponents. Hoofing the ball in the air at big defenders. Passing the ball at heights difficult to control when there was no need for it. Standing waiting for the ball to come to your feet, when you should be making sure you get to it first. Ball watching in defence while the man you should be marking goes on the run behind you. Ball watching in midfield when a team mate goes on the break. Oh look what's he doing? Hoping you'll move your ass, find space and give him an option for a pass or a cross you dimwit!  Hitting passes that don't have a hope of not being intercepted, rather than hold it up or run with it, because giving it away is apparently superior option to losing it in a tackle. Loosely defined as hot potato football. All that but the very last example I lay at the players door.  The last example is an ethos that emanates through managers, originating from the cult of swagger purge from the SFA. The one that defines talented ball players as "luxuries" the Scottish game can't afford.  It's just worked soooooo well!

It's not manager or players, it's both.  With added help from an SFA ethos that dooms most would be managers from the start. What's the solution? Who's the solution?  Answers on a postcard please, to a long time ago in a galaxy far far away.

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24 minutes ago, Darth Bino said:

Individual basics.  Ball control, passing, heading, shooting, tackling, movement off the ball, marking and vision. 

Watching Scotland game whilst reading your post Darth. Belgium in a different class from us - but we’ve just lost a goal from a straightforward corner where our central defender gets nowhere near close enough to his man or the ball. That’s feck all to do with difference in class & everything to do with not able to do the basics right. Not much more basic requirement for a central defender to win the feckin ball at a corner - or, at very least, put in a challenge that makes opponent unable to get a clear header. FFS! 

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42 minutes ago, Offside said:

Watching Scotland game whilst reading your post Darth. Belgium in a different class from us - but we’ve just lost a goal from a straightforward corner where our central defender gets nowhere near close enough to his man or the ball. That’s feck all to do with difference in class & everything to do with not able to do the basics right. Not much more basic requirement for a central defender to win the feckin ball at a corner - or, at very least, put in a challenge that makes opponent unable to get a clear header. FFS! 

Exactly mate.

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2 hours ago, The Gray Man said:

 

1. Who would you go for to replace KR?

2. How confident are you that they could do any better?

3. I am agreeing with you that these players are KR signings. You haven’t read my post properly. 

4. Why are you not classifying Bikey as a KR signing? 

1.  That's not for me to decide, that's what the board's for.  I'm not up to date on who is available and who isn't. 

2.  Personally, with this group of players,  neither Pep nor Klopp could get them to be a football team.

3.  OK.

4.  I believe that Bikey approached the club on his return to Scotland and believe that the Chairman encouraged KR, after testing his fitness and availability, to sign him up. That's my reading of the situation.

I appreciate that both of us are concerned about the club's current position, but neither of us, or for that matter, all of the rest of us Binos supporters, are going to have say in what happens in the coming weeks.  Let us hope that circumstances change and we might have a smile on our faces soon. 

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15 minutes ago, Robert Young said:

1.  That's not for me to decide, that's what the board's for.  

2.  Personally, with this group of players,  neither Pep nor Klopp could get them to be a football team.

Likewise it not for you to decide when KR should be sacked. I still can’t understand why someone who thinks this team will finish 8th is championing for the manager to get sacked.

So, if neither of those elite managers could get a tune out of these players why not just let KR get on with it and we can see what happens further down the line?

I believe that Brechin have played their hand far to early (or late as Smith shouldn’t have been renewed after last season). I’m not particularly concerned about Wilson going in as Manager and I don’t think their squad is any better than Stirling’s. Five games into the League season is to early to be panicking.

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1 hour ago, The Gray Man said:

Likewise it not for you to decide when KR should be sacked. I still can’t understand why someone who thinks this team will finish 8th is championing for the manager to get sacked.

So, if neither of those elite managers could get a tune out of these players why not just let KR get on with it and we can see what happens further down the line?

I believe that Brechin have played their hand far to early (or late as Smith shouldn’t have been renewed after last season). I’m not particularly concerned about Wilson going in as Manager and I don’t think their squad is any better than Stirling’s. Five games into the League season is to early to be panicking.

It's not for me to decide if he's sacked either, but if he doesn't start getting points and I  was in charge and won't sack him, guess who's head the fans would want on a block with him. 

How many defeats on the trot do you  let him to get on with it for?

Whether or not you think you're better than another struggling side at the bottom, is the lowest bar you could base a decision on.  Berwick thought that about Albion Rovers. It did not turn out well.

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For me, I can’t see us reaching the play offs no matter who is in charge.  This season, yet again, is a right off.  The only goal should be to minimalise financial loss and avoid relegation.  If the results don’t improve, then the crowds/income will fall and the player budget for next season will need to be cut, making the challenge of promotion even harder.

The board need to keep the fans believing and coming to games, and this is why an unsuccessful manager loses his job even if a better option isn’t available.

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We can swap opinions all we like, but it's the board who will decide if and when the manager goes.  I've got mixed feelings about it all. I don't see KR getting allowed more than a game or two without a result. I wouldn't argue with it.  On the other hand, another manager coming in, who needs another six games to find out who's worth putting on that pitch, doesn't thrill me either. So I'm not crying for KR to stay or go,  I just want those players to prove they should be here.  Wouldn't that be a nice feching change. Might be good for them too, if they don't fancy the juniors when the next guy in turfs most of them out.  Maybe they need reminding that  players party to getting their managers sacked in league 2, are a tad short on negotiating power.

Do I sound harsh?  Good, that's how i feel.

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I’ve never been one to call for a managers head, (although I may have suggested one or two have a good look within themselves) and I’m not going to start now.

This time last year I thought we were doomed, I just couldn’t see where a result was coming from. This season I feel the team is not far away from clicking. No empirical evidence to suggest this, I just think that if/when we get our first choice eleven fired up we might just string a run of positive results together.

It’s not my decision though. 

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8 minutes ago, J19 said:

I’ve never been one to call for a managers head, (although I may have suggested one or two have a good look within themselves) and I’m not going to start now.

This time last year I thought we were doomed, I just couldn’t see where a result was coming from. This season I feel the team is not far away from clicking. No empirical evidence to suggest this, I just think that if/when we get our first choice eleven fired up we might just string a run of positive results together.

It’s not my decision though. 

Like you I feel the team is just about there.  But a bad start has drained the confidence and everything that could possibly go wrong at the moment seems to be doing so. 

It's not an excuse and I think the players are well capable of turning those narrow defeats into wins 

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20 hours ago, Darth Bino said:

How many defeats on the trot do you  let him to get on with it for?

Whether or not you think you're better than another struggling side at the bottom, is the lowest bar you could base a decision on.  Berwick thought that about Albion Rovers. It did not turn out well.

I’m not sure how many defeats in a row I’d give him to be honest. I think I’d be more guided by the immediate teams above. I’d also would be more concerned if the defeats were more than single goals. What I do know is that the club desperately need to try and break the cycle of sacking managers in October/November.

You are absolutely right about trying to be better than one more team in the league, but that ties in with my point about breaking that sacking cycle. We have all been watching the exact same film with a different set of cast for some time now.

I also believe that there could be a number of alternative strategies that the club should be trying before sacking yet another manager. The board really need to be reviewing why this situation keeps occurring and what they can put in place to change the structure or organisation of the club. To hang it all on the manager is simply not good enough.

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54 minutes ago, The Gray Man said:

I’m not sure how many defeats in a row I’d give him to be honest. I think I’d be more guided by the immediate teams above. I’d also would be more concerned if the defeats were more than single goals. What I do know is that the club desperately need to try and break the cycle of sacking managers in October/November.

You are absolutely right about trying to be better than one more team in the league, but that ties in with my point about breaking that sacking cycle. We have all been watching the exact same film with a different set of cast for some time now.

I also believe that there could be a number of alternative strategies that the club should be trying before sacking yet another manager. The board really need to be reviewing why this situation keeps occurring and what they can put in place to change the structure or organisation of the club. To hang it all on the manager is simply not good enough.

Agree with this. After a manager gets the boot there's that slight frisson of excitement while speculating about who the next messiah is going to be. I'm at the stage here, if KR gets the boot I'll have more a shudder of foreboding if my apathy allows me to.

Managers are, fairly reasonably, given targets I think for what should be achievable in a quarter/season. I think (and it may well happen anyway) that the board should be flexible and allow a manager more time if there are signs that they basically know what they're doing, but just need to make their mistakes while learning their craft. What I'm basically meaning is that, even If the target is top 4 for this season, and we aren't going to achieve it, don't sack the manager just because we're going to finish between 5th and 9th, but review where the manager's performance is at and offer him a contract for another season (or 6 months perhaps) if appropriate.

 That also depends on the executive board having the nous to evaluate the position accurately, but I think it's time the existing cycle was broken.

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7 hours ago, The Gray Man said:

I’m not sure how many defeats in a row I’d give him to be honest. I think I’d be more guided by the immediate teams above. I’d also would be more concerned if the defeats were more than single goals. What I do know is that the club desperately need to try and break the cycle of sacking managers in October/November.

You are absolutely right about trying to be better than one more team in the league, but that ties in with my point about breaking that sacking cycle. We have all been watching the exact same film with a different set of cast for some time now.

I also believe that there could be a number of alternative strategies that the club should be trying before sacking yet another manager. The board really need to be reviewing why this situation keeps occurring and what they can put in place to change the structure or organisation of the club. To hang it all on the manager is simply not good enough.

Can't argue with that.  The board is short of a contributor who really knows football from the playing and managerial side. Something I believe they have come to accept.  The problem in doing something about it is double edged. It's either got to be someone also willing to volunteer their time, or  less cash for the playing budget to pay them.   For the sake of an example I'm going to suggest Kevin Drinkell as a director of football.  He might have the spare hours to put in, but would he do it for free?  How much then would it cost to secure him, or somebody else if they want paid?   

If it would break this awful cycle I'd be very tempted to say it's a price worth paying, or worth trying. As my pants get wetter and wetter, I suppose trying something appeals to me more than doing nothing. Even if it has a cost coming with it and no guarantee it's a solution.  Won't be this season though, unless the cash fairy flutters through a Forthbank window to pay one.

I am sympathetic to people pointing out that it's narrow defeats, but if the players don't stop gifting the ball back to the opposition and make better use of possession, it's hard to see them ending.  KR has got to get that through to players and they have to respond on a Saturday afternoon. That's the short term solution and they need to get it done.

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2 hours ago, Darth Bino said:

As my pants get wetter and wetter, I suppose trying something appeals to me more than doing nothing. 

Have you tried nappies?

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17 hours ago, Darth Bino said:

The board is short of a contributor who really knows football from the playing and managerial side. Something I believe they have come to accept.  

I’m glad that they have finally accepted this. It has been constantly reiterated to them since I started showing an interest in Albion back in 2011. However, to accept this point and not to act upon it almost seems like negligence from the board. 

17 hours ago, Darth Bino said:

The problem in doing something about it is double edged. It's either got to be someone also willing to volunteer their time, or  less cash for the playing budget to pay them.   

This would obviously be an issue, but the board surely need to complete some sort of feasibility report on how this idea could progress forward. It could be as simple as advertising it as a voluntary opportunity and see what kind of response comes back. The club don’t have to commit to employing anyone. If no one fits the bill then you consider a paid position. To be honest, I think it should be a paid post.

17 hours ago, Darth Bino said:

 For the sake of an example I'm going to suggest Kevin Drinkell as a director of football.  He might have the spare hours to put in, but would he do it for free?  How much then would it cost to secure him, or somebody else if they want paid?   

Essentially we are both talking about a Director of Football role here. This role differs from club to club and it would be a task in itself the club coming up with a job description specific to Stirling Albion. I am sure there are a number of people performing this role in elite professional football who could provide the club help and guidance with this if they wished to do so.

I’ll take your Kevin Drinkell example and raise you Ross Wilson-type candidate. Anyone who is unfamiliar with Ross should do a little bit of research on his background and CV. Short version is that he has a Masters in Sports Management from Stirling Uni. He started off at Falkirk FC where he grew in to the role of DoF. Since then he moved to England to do similar roles with Watford, Huddersfield and Southampton. I think he is still in his mid 30s He has no professional football playing background and nor does he need it. Stirling would obviously be looking for the Falkirk version of Ross. A young ambitious guy or lady who is looking to progress in the game.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/34202470

As for taking cash away from the playing budget, my response would be how much of that budget is getting wasted every half-season emptying the squad and bringing in new players? How much is getting wasted paying off managers with ~6 months left on their contract? The board always seem very good at providing something extra when the chips are down e.g., Bikey or to give the new guy a chance with his own players. Does this money come out of the rainy day pot that was discussed a few years back? If so, has anyone else noticed it has been raining a hell of a lot lately. 

The DoF role isn’t a quick or short-term fix, so another alternative to try and help KR might be to bring in an experienced head as an Assistant Manager. My brain is fried for the night, so I am struggling to come up with an example for this one at the moment. Anyway, as I’ve said previously the structure and organisation of the club has to change and the cycle needs to stop. As Albert Einstein once said “the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results.”

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, Bobs said:

Have you tried nappies?

Incontinence knickers from Exchange and Mart bobs. That's why I walk funny, like my politics, it always runs to the left.

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20 minutes ago, The Gray Man said:

I’m glad that they have finally accepted this. It has been constantly reiterated to them since I started showing an interest in Albion back in 2011. However, to accept this point and not to act upon it almost seems like negligence from the board. 

This would obviously be an issue, but the board surely need to complete some sort of feasibility report on how this idea could progress forward. It could be as simple as advertising it as a voluntary opportunity and see what kind of response comes back. The club don’t have to commit to employing anyone. If no one fits the bill then you consider a paid position. To be honest, I think it should be a paid post.

Essentially we are both talking about a Director of Football role here. This role differs from club to club and it would be a task in itself the club coming up with a job description specific to Stirling Albion. I am sure there are a number of people performing this role in elite professional football who could provide the club help and guidance with this if they wished to do so.

I’ll take your Kevin Drinkell example and raise you Ross Wilson-type candidate. Anyone who is unfamiliar with Ross should do a little bit of research on his background and CV. Short version is that he has a Masters in Sports Management from Stirling Uni. He started off at Falkirk FC where he grew in to the role of DoF. Since then he moved to England to do similar roles with Watford, Huddersfield and Southampton. I think he is still in his mid 30s He has no professional football playing background and nor does he need it. Stirling would obviously be looking for the Falkirk version of Ross. A young ambitious guy or lady who is looking to progress in the game.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/34202470

As for taking cash away from the playing budget, my response would be how much of that budget is getting wasted every half-season emptying the squad and bringing in new players? How much is getting wasted paying off managers with ~6 months left on their contract? The board always seem very good at providing something extra when the chips are down e.g., Bikey or to give the new guy a chance with his own players. Does this money come out of the rainy day pot that was discussed a few years back? If so, has anyone else noticed it has been raining a hell of a lot lately. 

The DoF role isn’t a quick or short-term fix, so another alternative to try and help KR might be to bring in an experienced head as an Assistant Manager. My brain is fried for the night, so I am struggling to come up with an example for this one at the moment. Anyway, as I’ve said previously the structure and organisation of the club has to change and the cycle needs to stop. As Albert Einstein once said “the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results.”

 

 

 

I've got no real issue with this except one.  I used Drinkell as an example because he has managerial experience and I feel that another director who doesn't know what to look for in a managerial candidate is, continuing Einstein's definition of insanity. We had a manager who sold himself on sports science. That also did not end well. We need more than that  as a qualification for a DOF I think.  

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4 hours ago, Ross the Boss said:

I've taken some time off the forum recently. Some very good and constructive points being raised here. Bravo folks, bravo. 

It’s amazing what can be achieved by a Pete rant free board. IMHO, this is what a forum should be, constructive discussions about the club, not everyone is agreeing but it’s everyone is justifying their stance.

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Just now, Buster said:

It’s amazing what can be achieved by a Pete rant free board. IMHO, this is what a forum should be, constructive discussions about the club, not everyone is agreeing but it’s everyone is justifying their stance.

Just like Parliament!!!

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21 hours ago, Darth Bino said:

I've got no real issue with this except one.  I used Drinkell as an example because he has managerial experience and I feel that another director who doesn't know what to look for in a managerial candidate is, continuing Einstein's definition of insanity. We had a manager who sold himself on sports science. That also did not end well. We need more than that  as a qualification for a DOF I think.  

To be fair three out of the last four Stirling ‘managers’ had no management experience. That seems to be on the desirable opposed to the essentials list. Management is skill that is not developed through playing football either.

My concern about Drinkell is that he hasn’t managed at this level for 19 years. The game and training methods have changed significantly over that period of time. More importantly, Drinkell seems to be in the same demographic as the rest of the board members, 60ish and male. My thoughts are that the board needs younger members with fresh ideas and alternative opinions getting brought to the table. This is known as the wisdom of crowds theory, which suggests you are more likely to arrive at the best options if you listen to a diverse group of people (with the exception of Pete and a few others).

Lastly, I know we are discussing semantics here, but a DoF would or should not be in sole charge of selecting a manager. Also, one of the main drivers for developing a position such as a DoF would be to hopefully reduce the number of managers being employed by the club in the first place. 

 

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